--- AyZedZed sets mode +w AyZedZed --- AyZedZed sets mode +s AyZedZed --> AyZedZed (~azz@212.159.25.14) has joined #gnome --- <-- Hallski has quit (EOF From client) --> Hallski (~Hallski@c193.150.232.84.cm-upc.chello.se) has joined #gnome --> bill20000 (patrick@ppp48-villiers1.libertysurf.fr) has joined #gnome What _is_ it with today? Two consecutive articles on /.: Mozilla is being dual-licensed under the GPL, and Office is being ported to Linux. Talk about good news and bad news... <-- bill20000 has quit (xchat exiting..) mmarker: just left <-- cameron has quit (Ping timeout: 601 seconds) --> skvidal (skvidal@airstripone.adsl.duke.edu) has joined #gnome --> garrett (garrett@host1.238.sjccnet.com) has joined #gnome hi all I got the new control center it's... weird. what new control-center? is it in cvs or released? wonder if raph made it there or not it's just a little list you double-click on a setting and another window pops up a bit odd you can make it look like a "folder" with big icons too... like some other OS. is it cvs or normal? I assume you can turn it off... it's from helix really? AyZedZed: you can't make it like the old version. what package? Bleurrggggh. <-- Hallski has quit ([x]chat) garrett: still not, but you will be able to select the old style --> tvgm (hestgray@okcnasb-246.ionet.net) has joined #gnome --- XachBot gives channel operator status to tvgm Is anyone connecting from LWE? um, I just heard an NPR coverage of LWE if that counts :-) Not really. I was wondering if Oracle had a large presence there. tvgm: I need to poke the raphmeister. * tvgm nods blankly Can I help somehow? A cattle prod perhaps? --> Hallski (micke@c193.150.233.236.cm-upc.chello.se) has joined #gnome <-- Hallski has quit (X-Chat!) * AyZedZed writes a shell script to generate "Wired Volume 8, Palm DOC Edition" --> cshobe (cshobe@user-37kadh7.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined #gnome How do I set X-Chat to use a black background with white text for the userlist? cshobe: use a GTK theme no --> boc (~jacob@host1.161.sjccnet.com) has joined #gnome just in xchat not everything --> micke (micke@c193.150.233.236.cm-upc.chello.se) has joined #gnome <-- nestek__ has quit ([x]chat) it already uses a black background for everything else cshobe: use a GTK theme. It's just a GtkCList (or GtkList, not sure) widget. Find out its name and write an appropriate bit of theme. no --- micke is now known as Hallski that would affect every program that used the widget I don't want that not necessarily cshobe: I'm pretty certain that you can specify just that widget in a theme, assuming it's given a name within xchat why doesn't x-chat have an internal color configuration option? mmarker? cshobe: because that's what themes are for :-)) --> i8degrees (~i8degrees@slip-32-100-181-146.ar.us.prserv.net) has joined #gnome no you shouldn't have to use themes themes suck dum de dum cshobe: no, themes don't suck. Take a look at how X resources are used in an Xt toolkit at some point --- anything's customisable, even down to the layout and bindings of the widgets. Themes rock. hrm cshobe: Now, if GTK had an easy way of writing themes... --> davek (~david@ritter.demon.co.uk) has joined #gnome themes would still suck cshobe: ... like editres for Xt stuff. <-- garrett has quit (Ping timeout) windows themes suck, and so do themes for anything else there is no point to them, and they're ugly It's true, software that uses color to the extent that X-Chat does, should have a color configuration option. internal configuration is the best Radagast: agreed cshobe: How exactly would that suck? Bring up the ThemeEditor, click the "Find Widget" button, click on the xchat list widget, click on the "colour" combo box and pick "puce", click "save". Sounds good to me. I'm not sure if that necessarily means GTK+ themes suck, but GTK+ themes are not the solution to fixing X-Chat colors. Of course, I'd _really_ love -geometry handling in GTK. AyZedZed: sounds like too much of a pain in the ass to me Just like GTK+ themes aren't the solution to text editor color coding configuration. * Radagast shrugs. Should be able to go to a menu, like Color--> Color Preferences cshobe: It works for Xt. Try using editres on a Motif program at some point (and imagine bringing it 15 years up to date ;) AyZedZed: I have no idea what the fsck you're talking about, and therefore, it's far far too complicated. --> nd- (nd@nic-31-c12-006.mn.mediaone.net) has joined #gnome cshobe: That's because you've never tried it. <-- robert has quit (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) cshobe: Hint: run xterm. Run editres. (Both standard X programs.) Pick Commands/Get Tree in editres and click on the xterm window. AyZedZed: I'm not goint to use something I've never heard of (editres) on something I've never used (Motif program) and imagine something I cannot conceive. editres and xterm both ship with xfree86; I suspect you've probably got them installed. It can't hurt to try :) yes so? now if x resources only carried type information we'd be getting somewhere --> Shiryu (~lgarcia@148.235.48.71) has joined #gnome IT'S TOO FUCKING COMPLICATED, and doesn't fix the problem --> robert (rwb197@servalan.ecs.soton.ac.uk) has joined #gnome lewing: Note that I said "imagine bringing it 15 years up to date" ;) AyZedZed: I'd rather not AyZedZed: I'd much rather have a simple internal color configuration I shouldn't have to go screw around trying to figure out what some widget is and configuring it. That's stupid. cshobe: But it does fix the problem! The way you suggest, every program should have its own colour configuration code. X resources are clunky, but they allow you to have _one_ program for configuring widget settings everywhere. --> joe (root@lw-123-13.sj.shownets.net) has joined #gnome cshobe: you should ask the x-chat authors to make it configurable AyZedZed: it's a stupid way, and not every program needs one. However, a program which uses text areas on anything other than the default window background should. * AyZedZed sighs It's really not worth arguing about. If you _want_ every author to have to waste a day coding up colour configuration routines, then that's fine by me, but don't expect me to use your design. AyZedZed: you can configure channels, querys, ... in xchat, why not the user listing? AyZedZed: of course, you'll go some roundabout way that takes 10 times as long and is a lot more difficult cshobe: Why exactly is it more difficult? cshobe: you should ask the x-chat authors to make it configurable cshobe: You don't need to do ANYTHING when coding your application, apart from giving your widgets externally-visible names (which you do already in GTK). --> KaiL (KaiL@A591e.pppool.de) has joined #gnome AyZedZed: what are you stupid? With internal configuration, it's simple and user-friendly. A couple clicks in a configuration dialog, and you're done. cshobe: And you automatically get configurability. AyZedZed: that is stupid and pointless and very unintuitive. <-- jelle has quit ([x]chat) cshobe: My way is also "a couple of clicks in a configuration dialog". It's just a different dialog, one that's plainly marked "Interface Look and Feel" or something like that. all that you've told me is to start xterm and start editres (things that a user would never think of), and get a tree, which doesn't even work on x-chat, and what if it did? I'd have to do something else to configure it, most likely very non-user-friendly AyZedZed: you show me where the fucking "Interface Look and Feel" is and I'll try it, but it doesn't exist. AyZedZed: you can configure channels, querys, ... in xchat, why not the user listing? what's bad with this?? cshobe: Ah. No, that's the Xt (i.e. 15-year-old) way of doing it. I was just suggesting that you do that to see where I'm getting my ideas from. whats the best mpeg video player out there? that is contained in a gui? i8degrees: mtv <-- Ng has quit (Connection reset by peer) llanero__: where is the color configureation for channels and queries in x-chat? that doesn't cost money ;) llanero__: Because I don't think that it's the sort of thing that the authors of Xchat should need to worry about --- it's the sort of thing that should be (and, indeed, already is!) configurable in GTK. AyZedZed: I can't click a menu and with 2 more clicks choose the color I want. Therefore, it's stupid As cshobe points out, there's no easy way of editing it at the moment --- we need a GNOME editres tool or something else. AyZedZed: no, there needs to be a color configuration option. editres is stupid.\ AyZedZed: whats needed is something like a GNOME editres, and a CORBA interface to let you edit an applications settings from within the application cshobe: Calling things "stupid" isn't helping me to understand why you think it's a bad idea. Why is editres stupid? (Aside from the interface being a nightmare, and that's not what I'm interested in duplication.) davek: Exactly! Thank you! AyZedZed: you're method is pointless. I shouldn't have to use a widget editor to change a background color. for a specific widget - that's just stupid. What if two different programs used the same widget and you wanted a different color in both programs? cshobe: the widgets would have different names, so it isn't a problem No, a specific _instance_ of a widget. When you're writing GTK programs, you can assign individual widgets names (like "play_button", "users_list" etc.). GnomeEditRes would allow you to specify "play_button should be purple", but do it through a friendly point-and-click interface. You could even embed it into the application (have a Settings/Interface option which brings up a GnomeEditRes dialog, etc.). whats better in ya's opinion? ee or eog? eog still too damn complicated - there's no need for anything that complex AyZedZed: thats a nice idea. are you volunteering to write it? AyZedZed: I don't see that dealing with the X-Chat scenario in a usable way, though. i8degrees: no AyZedZed: Although I think it's pretty smart in general. mmarker: what? cshobe: So how's that more complicated than the method you're suggesting? With yours: pick Settings/General, find the "List Colour Background" pulldown within the dialog, select "Black", click "OK". With mine: select Settings/Interface, click "Find Widget" (or something more friendly), click on the list (which then gets highlighted to show it's selected), pick "Black" from the "Background Colour" pulldown, click "OK". umm no Radagast: I'd love to, but my tuit isn't round enough at the moment ;) I shouldn't have to click on the list that's stupid and unintuitive cshobe: Stop arguing that things are "stupid" or "unintuitive". Neither actually means anything. AyZedZed: Some software will require color configuration that's more detailed than what a generic interface like that can provide. the things which the program contains and allows to be modified should be listed AyZedZed: sure they do AyZedZed: In X-Chat, for instance, I'd like to be able to color highlight regexps in the chat window and user list window, for instance. AyZedZed: stupid means an alternate way of doing things that makes less since. unintuitive means not-user friendly.; OK, alternative idea: in embedded Interface dialogs, you have a tree of things representing the widgets in the window (which can be automatically generated), and you can pick from there instead of using Find Widget. AyZedZed: and if it existed, then I might use it and see if I liked it, but it doesn't. cshobe: But it _doesn't_ make less sense. It makes application code simpler, meaning development time is lower, and it avoids code duplication, making it easier to fix bugs,. --> muet (muet@nsit-s227-67.uchicago.edu) has joined #gnome Radagast: Well, I'd just want to replicate the stuff you can configure in the gtkrc, but I see no reason why specific widgets (like the Xchat channel widget) couldn't provide their own settings... AyZedZed: Same thing with text editors that want to syntax highlight. AyZedZed: Since you *don't* want to specify a grammar for syntax highlighting an arbitrary programming language in a gtkrc. :) --> zilch (zilch@1Cust94.tnt5.stk3.da.uu.net) has joined #gnome Radagast: ... so both XChat and the text editor should share a "highlightable text" widget (I think there's one already), which exposes its highlighting settings to the rest of the world. The application can provide default settings for its instance of the widget. (I think I'm slowly reinventing X resources here... sigh...)( again, too complex cshobe: That's at the application level, and is the same complexity as exists already. cshobe: It's not visible to the user. Anyway, I'm off; thanks for the discussion. --- You have left channel #gnome